- Home
- Read international & press responses to this video
- Watch Google’s full, longer version (16mins 48secs)
- Geert Wilders speaks on the movie
- The Quilliam Foundation - a counter-extremism think tank
Comment at end
Update - 14th April, 2008
Lebanon has called for a dialogue with Geert Wilders following the Fitna video. Well, that’s a start.
Lebanon’s high-ranking Shiite Muslim cleric Sheikh Mohammed Hussien Fadlallah called for dialogue with Dutch politician Geert Wilders regarding his anti-Islam film “Fitna.”
“We are ready to enter into dialogue with the Dutch politicians, especially with Geert Wilders, to explain to them the understandings of Islam and the Koran regarding violence,” Fadlallah said.
And … Jihad Watch says - “Preeeeeee-cisely“ on the news that the Jihadist cleric Omar Bakri has said that Fitna - “could be a film by the Mujahideen”.
31st March, 2008 - UPDATE
LIVELEAK HAS FIXED ITS LITTLE ‘FITNA’ PROBLEM - WILDERS BACK ONLINE
“** 30/3/2008: Liveleak Update **
On the 28th of March LiveLeak.com was left with no other choice but to remove the film “fitna” from our servers following serious threats to our staff and their families. Since that time we have worked constantly on upgrading all security measures thus offering better protection for our staff and families. With these measures in place we have decided to once more make this video live on our site. We will not be pressured into censoring material which is legal and within our rules. We apologise for the removal and the delay in getting it back, but when you run a website you don’t consider that some people would be insecure enough to threaten our lives simply because they do not like the content of a video we neither produced nor endorsed but merely hosted. “
Nuff said.
UNBELIEVABLE … BUT TRUE!
UPDATE: Liveleak, the British video host who first broadcast this video has been forced to remove it.
“Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.
This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.
Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.
We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high.”
WHAT!? Reports from “certain corners of the British media”! I am ashamed, but not surprised, at my country’s media. The loudmouthed ignoramouses whose freedoms they say they so fondly cherish. The same media who crunched Blair’s reputation under their feet over the Honours fiasco, over “dodgy” dossiers, over Iraq. THEY should be thoroughly ashamed. They won’t be. THEY are the enemy within. Well, YouTube has not been cowed, YET. If you want to save this video just in case, download it to your hard drive. You can then upload it again to a web host like YouTube or Google.
They won’t silence all of us. Freedom of speech is ours too.
28th March, 2008
Wilders: “I believe we have been too tolerant of the intolerant. We should learn to become intolerant of the intolerant.”
Profile of Geert Wilders, Dutch MP
Note from this blog owner: I am as convinced as I can be that if I were Dutch I would not be voting for this man’s right-wing politics, BUT, in the interests of the free speech that permits the west to laugh at its own religions, that allows an English lawyer to call on Al Qaeda to kill a former British prime minister, and that turns away from the FACT that not everyone understands or complies with OUR western “tolerance”, here is the highly contentious Geert Wilders video, which has just been released.
WARNING - CONTAINS GRAPHIC SCENES OF VIOLENCE (Google Video)
[NOTE: The Wilders video can still be found on YouTube, but you need to sign up and verify your age first.]
[ASIDE: Today the British government has announced that it is applying "controls" to videos in order that we can censor what our children are watching. It should be noted that this cannot apply to online sharing sites such as YouTube. This video, when you search for it on YouTube, only asks that you confirm you are of an age to view it! Click "yes" and it's yours to view, download, distribute. And you can use any portions of it to re-mix a video and then re-post that version.
Control? Laughable. It's too late for that.]
Geert Wilders’ sin seems to be that he is criticising Islam itself and not the extreme political/religious fundamentalists who use their Holy Book as justification for murder. But we really cannot dodge around the issue as though others are with us on this separation. Many in the Islamic world DO take the Khoran at face value and as literally as many take the Garden of Eden story. The difference being that in Christian/Jewish writings we are not asked to “kill the infidel”.
I have no truck with religious/political hatred of any sort. But it will not be an easy task for Muslims to come up with an alternative movie showing that other religions ask for this kind of retribution on “non-believers”.
And it is also clear that it is from some in the Islamic faith that today’s terrorism emanates.
Moderate Muslims around the world owe the rest of us this:
- A re-visiting of the Khoran
- The expurgation and disowning of all references advocating death to others
- A re-establishment of their religion as holy, and not holy war
But I fear there isn’t much time. And as far as I understand Islam, there is no overall controlling decision-making body with the authority to question and alter their Holy Book.
Is it already too late?
Are we already intimidated to the extent that Wikipedia feels the need to write this on its website (now altered by some unknown hand. But you can see Wikipedia’s “fitna” explanation here). Meanwhile the Dutch government dismisses Wilders’ film out of hand, and Wilders is under 24 hour protection. Why? For telling the truth.
Read excerpts from this German site:
‘Dutch far-right MP Geert Wilders made good on his promise to post his controversial film critical of Islam on the Internet Thursday, March 28, putting Holland on alert for retaliation attacks by incensed Muslims.
The Wilders film, titled “Fitna” [strife], made its debut via British video-sharing website Liveleak and soon spread to the globally popular YouTube site where it quickly generated heated debate among viewers and much divided opinion.
The Dutch government, fearful of reprisals similar to those which followed the reproduction across Europe of the cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed, pressured Wilders not to release the movie but to little effect.
“This film equates Islam with violence and we reject this interpretation,” said Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende. “The vast majority of Muslims reject extremism and violence. In fact the victims are often also Muslims”
Initial reactions from the Muslim community in the Netherlands were restrained. The evening after the film’s release passed without incident, in contrast to the unrest that swept the country following the murder by an Islamic militant in 2004 of film director Theo van Gogh, another Dutch artist who was accused of offending Islam.
Prime Minister Balkenende praised the efforts of his government to defuse Muslim anger in the months preceding the release of the film and welcomed the initial Muslim response. “The government is heartened by the initial restrained reactions of Dutch Muslim organizations,” he said. “The Dutch government stands for a society in which freedom and respect go hand in hand… Let us solve problems by working together.”‘
What do YOU think? Can we solve it together?
REACTIONS TO THIS VIDEO’S POSTING ONLINE
- UN’s Secretary General Ban Ki-moon calls for calm. Excerpt:
28 March 2008 – Secretary-General today led a chorus of United Nations condemnation of the Internet broadcast of a video made by the Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders, describing it as “offensively anti-Islamic,” while he also called on those upset by the film to remain calm. In a statement issued by his spokesperson after last night’s airing of the film, entitled Fitna, Mr. Ban said “there is no justification for hate speech or incitement to violence. The right of free expression is not at stake here.
“I acknowledge the efforts of the Dutch Government to stop the broadcast of this film and appeal for calm to those understandably offended by it. Freedom must always be accompanied by social responsibility.”
- Britain blamed by Iran for hosting the video
- The Times article & comments
- The Guardian’s Collective Shrug - and other typical Dhimmitudisms. Written by this man.
- YouTube’s Posting Decision - Now You Don’t See It - Now You Do!
- The European Union condemns the film
- Freedom’s Zone - Defending free speech & tolerance, says “truth is often painful”
- CNN report - Wilders facing legal action
- Cranmer’s political blog - concern over free speech
- Read “The Absurd Report”
- Infidels Are Cool blog - lively commentary, and a Google version of the video
- American Thinker - “It is Islamic violence which threatens Holland and all of Europe”
- The Asian Tribune - The Council of Europe representing the Muslims in Europe as well as Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaath delegation in Sri Lanka condemns video. Excerpt:
“As the intention of this conspiracy is to defame the Holy Quran, Ahmadiyya delegation clearly explained to the Ambassador that any one who do such acts should fear for the punishment of God, who guarantees for the protection of this Holy Scripture - who is the One revealed this Holy Book to His Holy Prophet.”
GOOGLE HAS THE FULL VERSION OF THE WILDERS VIDEO AS ORIGINALLY SHOWN AT LIVELEAK UNTIL THE BRITISH PRESS AND THREATS FORCED ITS SHAMEFUL REMOVAL
POLL - POPULAR WITH PUBLIC, NOT WITH JOURNALISTS (HE’S OBVIOUSLY DOING SOMETHING CORRECT!)
//////////
APOSTASY NOW
I referred to this in a reply to a commenter here at this page. Thought I should include it on the page itself. I don’t really know how anyone can complain about this sort of thing being shown, even if one is a Muslim who disagrees vehemently with it. It’s what is written in the Khoran, so it is part of Islamist theology. And fundamentalists will NOT deviate from that, and moderate Muslims have neither the power nor the will, it seems
Follow the links at the ‘Apostates of Islam’ site
This horrific video of people being stoned to death for adultery is indescribable in its atrocity against our fellow man. It’s unbelievably cruel. The people punishing them are worse than ANIMALS. Animals kill for food - to survive.
The people are wrapped in cloths, half buried and then, hearing only the baying of the crowds - “Allah, Allah is Great” - they are pelted with stones until their heads are turned to mush. It takes them some time to die, and some of them struggle to the end to release themselves. The pain must be excruciating.
My heart aches for them. And this evil is muslim upon muslim. It is not an invention of the west or anti-Islams. It happens. Perhaps now repeatedly in some Muslim lands as I write. If Islamic peoples embrace this theology so willingly and with such bloodlust against their own, what hope is there that they would do less against non-Muslims?
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A REMINDER to FELLOW BRITS: BRITISH MOSQUES PREACH HATE - DISPATCHES, UK
Green Lane Mosques, Birmingham, the centre for Wahabism, the most extreme form of Islamist extremism. This mosque is influenced by Saudi Arabian clerics, “since the 1980s”. You can hear all the ambitions of the jihadists here. As well as such as - “Hit your children … women are deficient … throw homosexuals off the mountains … marry a pre-pubescent child ‘as did Mohammed’ … dismantle British democracy … take over the country”.
A Saudi PLOT? Is THAT the (political) problem?
This film footage is not invented or misinterpreted. Just filmed.
Are these people all in custody now? What do YOU think?
//////////
BUT WE’RE FIGHTING BACK
And now Iran is going to make their own video about Christianity. Ah well. Don’t waste your time. We’re used to it. We laugh at ourselves, and will disarm you for agreeing with you half the time! Sickening, isn’t it?
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/04/04/iranian_group_plans_counter-documentary/8626/
Tags: Terrorism, europe, EU, youtube, islam, video, islamists, geert wilders, dutch mp, fitna, strife, theo van gogh, Jan Peter Balkenende, mohammed, allah, netherlands, liveleak, fundamentalism, islamic, terrorists
March 28, 2008 at 1:24 pm
it’s not impossible,
the only sad bit is the fact that the handful of extremists in every region have ended up gaining more popularity and a larger “following” than the moderates..
i’m a muslim from pakistan myself, and i can tell you this much, that the Quran’s message is..not vehemently against everybody else, and while the verses that Geert Wilder used in his video are just slightly off in translation, they need to be taken in their original context to make sense..because these verses were revealed 1400 years ago at a time when Islam was seen as a radical ideology and a threat to the existing belief system in Arabia, and the verses were revealed largely in a context of self defense,. i realize this may not be the most convincing form of evidence, but i can ask you to read the source of the text (the Quran itself) and see for yourself what the religion is all about.
sorry if this sounds rather random..i was kinda writing stream of consciousness..
March 28, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Moderate Muslim? that is the question. Why are Europeans giving away their culture to foreigners and cult religions? For 1000’s of years you have been doing just fine. Democracy, science, speration of church and state have propelled Europe into a birght future. Now, it seems your future may be in peril. When Hitler invaded the Rhine Europe was like “well, it is part of his own country and nothing to worry about…” until he took a little more and more… Wake up! defend your country and your culture!
March 28, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Hi ovais,
Well I sincerely hope we can get the moderate view over. But we also need to stop the ritual punishments Islam perpetrates against its own.
Yes, I accept your words on the age of the Quran, and the context in which it was written. Having said that, others might say that the Christian and Hebrew scriptures are older still and don’t instruct their followers to hate and murder infidels.
Can you tell me how ANY civilised Muslim justifies this? I really need to try to understand this. If I can’t, I’m with Geert Wilders more than I realised.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
This horrific video of people being stoned to death for adultery is indescribable in its atrocity against our fellow man. It’s unbelievably cruel. The people punishing them are worse than ANIMALS. Animals kill for food - to survive.
The people are wrapped in cloths, half buried and then, hearing only the baying of the crowds - “Allah, Allah is Great” - they are pelted with stones until their heads are turned to mush. It takes them some time to die, and some of them struggle to the end to release themselves. The pain must be excruciating.
My heart aches for them. And this evil is muslim upon muslim. It is not an invention of the west or anti-Islams. It happens. Perhaps now repeatedly in some Muslim lands as I write. If Islamic peoples embrace this theology so willingly and with such bloodlust against their own, what hope is there that they would do less against non-Muslims?
I’ve had a try at reading through the Quran at its website and got only so far, admittedly, before my eyes were starting to cross! Sorry. And I’m sure MOST of it is good. I think religions DO have good intent at their hearts. But of course there are so many elements which just have no place in today’s world - dreadful punishments for adultery, homosexuality, even theft. And apostasy is also punishable by death. We are entitled to ask - what kind of religion is this?
Evil is as evil does. We in the west do not accept this barbarity. We never will.
I don’t know the answer, but I think nothing less than banning stoning, hand-chopping and decapitation will leave Islam’s extreme reputation where it should be - in the past.
IT really IS over to all good Muslim leaders to make the changes.
But who has the courage or following to lead moderate Islam?
March 28, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Unfortunately, I’m not able to write as much as I would wish, at this moment. I would, however, like to comment as a Westerner, an American, who has just been made aware of Geert Wilder’s film (and I have watched it from beginning to end). I can only hope that the truly open-minded followers of ALL religions, world-wide, realize that this sort of trash is viewed for what it is, by their bretheren around the world. To lump the narrow-minded and hate-filled of ANY religion with the WHOLE of that religion can only be called absurd!! And this truly is known by so very many in ALL countries.
To say that religious hatred and violence is limited to Islam is so completely untrue, as to be rediculous! The horrors said and done in the name of Christianity (and not ONLY in the Middle Ages) have often been just as brutal and frightening to the rest of the world. And OFTEN, as with Muslim extremist violence, the victims are other Christians! Extremists are extremists…no matter their religious affiliation! And they can certainly be equally hateful and dangerous…to anyone and EVERYONE.
Sadly, there are always those of less enlightened mentality and ideals, who will always take this sort of propoganda to heart…and react accordingly. May we all do our best to speak our minds and hearts OPENLY…in order to show the rest of the world that hatred is NOT accepted by any group as a whole, AND to make certain that our voices are heard by the people in power!!
March 28, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Hi Liz,
You said:
“To say that religious hatred and violence is limited to Islam is so completely untrue, as to be rediculous!”
Point taken. I think moderates of all religions agree with you that it is only a minority.
But today it’s hard to argue that there are many Christians who are doing this to Christians much less to those of other religions. Or perhaps you know better than I do. If so, perhaps you’d provide me with a few links?
Always willing to learn.
As for the past, yes, we know of our ’sad and bad’ religious histories. My contention is that we can’t say the past was dreadful so anything that’s done today is not any more dreadful, so in effect today’s perpetrations of evil don’t really matter that much.
There is a huge difference in the efficacy of the means of distribution today. Millions of impressionable minds put themselves forward for sacrifice to the cause at the drop of a YouTube video. The all-pervasive media makes the message easier to disseminate and thus much more dangerous.
And, really Liz, do you have no concerns that the Quran seems to seek annihilation of non-believers?
Did you look at the video I pointed to in my previous response?
If so, what do you think?
March 28, 2008 at 3:27 pm
I totally support his video. Muslims DO NOT respect other religions, in their countries only Muslim are considered full citizens. Jew are vilified in the same manner as their old allies the Nazis. Islam spread from a tiny part of the Arabian Peninsula to Spain in the west and India in the East in 100 years through warfare and violence inspired by the Koran. As far as the equivocation about Christianity and violence, I might add that those events were in the past and are discredited by every Christian sect in the world minus a couple redneck churches in the sticks. While Islamic violence occurs every day.
As proof of this: there are synagogues and mosques in Rome, churches and mosques in Jerusalem but nothing but hate mosques in Saudi Arabia, where the bigots there treat their women like camels and won’t even allow Jews to visit.
March 28, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Hi Jakester,
Thank you for your comment. Good points about the religious buildings in some countries. On the other hand I know there are Christian churches in Iraq, and recently Muslims were helping to re-furbish one of them.
When I compare our tolerant approach to others compared with the fundamentalist Islamist approach I need go no further than the centre of my capital city, London. There you often find groups of people waving banners calling for death to this or that British or American politician and ALL westerners. They bellow inciteful nonsense, while the English police stand by nonchalantly and wonder what’s on TV tonight.
Free speech means they can say, shout or scream whatever they like.
And yet in the lands of their forefathers (even today) can you imagine how a westerner would be treated waving a placard saying “death to your *Leader*”?
He’d be inside four walls before he knew it. And that’s if he were lucky. And if a WOMAN had the gall to try to complain - HAH!
We don’t take it seriously enough, as it’s not in our nature to fume and boil at others’ rather desperate need for religious fundamentalism. We tend to think they’ll grow out of it.
Hmm…mmm
March 28, 2008 at 4:09 pm
keeptonyblairforpm, your point is well received. I might also add in tolerant London, Muslim clerics who preach hate against infidels, crusaders or Jews are welcome, including Hamas and Hezbollah reps, groups devoted to killing Jews and destroying Israel. But then agaiin, Israelis are threatened with arrest if they visit London on trumped up human rights charges and are denied visas based on their nationalism by the same tolerant people. Of course, in merry London, Communist Chinese and Cubans are always welcome, no matter what they did in Tibet or to their dissenters, as well as those paragons of human rights and religious toleration from the Sudan, not to mention Sheiks of all stripes from your old colonial client states. Lucky we have a bill of rights here, but not in your country. Things are not perfect here but your implication that a woman would be abused by authorities more than a man as a matter of principle is slanderous. You can ignore religious fundamentalism all you want, but they might not want to ignore you when they come to visit while they are establishing the Islamic Republic of England
March 28, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Jakester,
It’s been infuriating for some of us to watch these “preachers” on London streets. All the more infuriating because the police stand by and no-one is arrested even though there are laws under which they could be charged. We in the UK are so in hock to the civil rights lobby that we have become its prisoners. And all because of the fear of civil unrest and/or losing a few seats in a general election.
Shameful.
The Israeli to whom you refer - I believe he stayed on the plane - and the British police did not have the necessary paperwork to board it and arrest him. An atrocious piece of nonsense. Just as well the Police were incompetent.
It’s no wonder Tony Blair allowed the Americans to extradite some of ours, without American reciprocation. He was fighting the civil rights lobby on several fronts, imho, and not least within his own party. He had to go for that reason as much as for Iraq. The people NEVER voted him out. The Left of his party and the liberal press connived.
I don’t say it is simple to work out who should or should not get entry into the UK, and I know that it is not right to damn a whole country’s population because of its leaders’ wrongdoings. BUT, I suppose, old colonials do have rights and we need to keep the oil flowing. No friends, just sometime allies in politics.
A recent paper on Rights & Responsibilities brought howls of derision from the civil righters! If THEY didn’t write it, it must be a right-wing plot. Incredible.
Ah well, looks like I’m done for anyway in the ‘Islamic Republic of England’, considering who I support.
I’ll go down fighting.
March 28, 2008 at 7:15 pm
What are we in the West to do with a theocratic culture still stuck in the middle ages and bound by a text that combines religious revelation and legal prescription with the fervor of an open call to arms? Since this text, the Koran, is the only unifying element of Islam, there are no existing means for its meaning or application to be temporized. In my opinion, the letter and current practive of Islam are totally INCOMPATIBLE with western civilization, which has evolved from the turmoil of religious sectarianism to a collection of secular societies bound by humanistic laws.
If it weren’t for the divine irony of placement of critical natural resources (oil), Islam would be totally irrelevant. As a culture, they have not offered anything to the sustainment or advancement of human society since the Moors kept alight the ancient knowledge of the western philosophers during the dark ages. Were it not for oil, and the arms and technology it buys, the radicals of Islam would have little means to strike out against the West. As it stands, their ability to inflict harm an export the violence inherent in their coda is directly related to their ability to take advantage of the freedoms and technologies that are a byproduct of Western civilization.
Indeed, even Islamic moderates must be viewed with a skeptical eye, since the Koran calls for the use of lying and subterfuge as a means to gain tactical and strategic advantage over the infidel opponent. An apparently moderate muslim who does not renounce the Koran or submit it to binding re-interpretation, is either a bad muslim or a good muslim following the tenets of his faith. Islam recognizes two conditions for humanity: The House of Islam, or the House of War. If one is not in the former, one will always remain in the latter.
The sooner Islamic nations and cultures actively confront the discrepancy between the Koran and modern Western society, the better we all will be. If this strife continues, Islam will eventually awaken a sleeping Western giant. If that happens, Western Europe may bear new scars to accompany those left by the expulsion of fascism in the last century.
March 28, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Mongo,
Thank you for writing this. This is a beautifully balanced and well argued exposition of the problems facing the world.
Your thoughts coincide with mine. This is exactly the reason I usually end up saying - ‘Good Muslims, it’s up to you.’
Whatever else we do, such as blaming western leaders for going “erroneously” into Iraq, regardless of whether it was legal, badly informed or prepared, we must not be blind to one fact.
And it didn’t all begin with 9/11. Let’s not kid ourselves.
Recently we had terrorists convicted after 13 years of training and brainwashing youngsters in and around London. How long does it take to pin something on these merchants of hate? And 13 years? That’s three years before Blair became Prime Minister, so their radicalism was hardly his fault.
And Hizb ut-Tahrir was started before Tony Blair was born. Its worldwide HQ is in London. It is still not banned in the UK.
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php
HuT is banned almost everywhere in the world, including many Muslim countries. Except, from my understanding, in the UK and Australia. Tony Blair tried to ban it in 2005 but was prevented by the civil/human righters and the liberal “intelligentsia” press in this country. He was informed that if banned HuT would probably win an appeal. The government could not risk that.
So such as HuT, feigning democratic means of persuasion, continue to ply their trade of worldwide caliphate, as is written in their Holy Books. Only, gently, as though they are democrats at heart.
They, in common with all fundamentalist Islamists, do not recognise democracy. They use it and abuse it for their own ends for as long as they can get away with it. And, when the time is right, they intend to do away with democracy and those of us who don’t subscribe to their political “religion”.
It gives me no joy to talk in this way, and as far as I know not one of the Muslims I know thinks in these terms. Sadly there is no earthly command structure to which they all subscribe. No human guide or authority, apart from the Khoran, to whom they are accountable. To Allah only they answer!
It’s a pernicious and dangerous way to live, as it relieves each individual of responsibility for his/her own actions.
And in Islam a child can preach to all if he feels he knows enough about an aspect of the credo. “He” being the operative word. Brainwashing from an early age.
I only hope that Tony Blair’s Faith Foundation can manage to do something positive in this direction. But time is short and we can’t wait until the next generation are better instructed to work for peace and reconciliation.
March 29, 2008 at 5:05 pm
I’m rather split on this one. I agree with much of the criticism of Islam both in the Wilders videos and on site here. However I’m not sure that propaganda of this type (and let’s not forget that it IS propoganda - the juxtaposition of Koran text and the images could equally be used by jihadists to justify their atrocities) is the best way of tackling this problem. As one of Wilders’ interviewers put it “Don’t you think your video will simply be fanning the flames?” Wilders had no convincing answer to this question.
Yes, we should raise awareness of the threat but Wilders seems to be ambiguous about whether he wants Muslims to just excise the bad parts of the Koran or whether he wants them to give it up altogether. In his video he says moderate Islam might win through some time but this could take a thousand years and we can’t wait around (that reminded me of someone else whose patience was exhausted).
If we cannot wait what else should we do? Ban Islam? Throw the Muslims out? A Muslim Holocaust? That’s the problem with Right wing (and Left wing) rabble rousers. They seize on a half-truth (or even a three-quarters truth), they blow it up, sometimes out of all proportion. They then present their own extremist solutions, with themselves, of course, taking the lead. Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer! It’s very easy to be seduced by acceptance of that half-truth into accepting the whole Right wing (or should I say, Far Right) package.
The answer is not to regard Mr Wilders as some kind of hero of Western Civilisation (as I’m sure BS doesn’t) but to argue more forcefully for a MODERATE solution to this problem. One that recognises the full gravity of the problem but rejects those who are trying to exploit it for their own twisted ends. That moderate approach (paradoxically) means really cracking down on extremism whereever it rears its ugly head (I’m completely relaxed about being extreme in defence of moderation). It also means recognising and doing our utmost to reinforce the the best of Islam and the best of Muslims. That’s the only way (the Blair way, I think) whatever the likes of Mr Wilders may say.
March 29, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Hello Stan, my thoughtful friend.
Ah yes … but.
I never really expected to agree with this man’s video, but I expected it to be worse than it was. Tearing into Islam in the same way as those fundamentalist tear into the “infidels”.
In fact I found it remarkably restrained. The only really sickening parts are where he shows atrocities being committed on hostages, and the victims of the bombings.
As I see it, he is clearly saying that he does not approve of the Khoran, that it is the cause of Islamist fundamentalism, that it leaves no room for debate as it cannot be questioned, that its extreme followers will do anything they believe it tells them, including killing their own families for adultery/homosexuality, and that there is no accommodation for other faiths. A lot more besides … but, tell me …
Do I have this wrong?
If I’m right, he is doing no more than pointing out what is wrong, in his mind with such a religious credo. And he is showing, by linking pictures of real-life atrocities perpetrated by Islamicist extremists, the consequences of this way of thinking.
Or have I got that wrong too?
If, sadly, all Muslims are painted with the same brush through this “disclosure” of means & end, why do they not question it? Why do they not rise up and challenge it?
Back to my old mantra - “Good Muslims, it’s up to you”.
Your propaganda argument.
This juxtapositioning IS OFTEN used by Jihad websites. But it’s almost (sorry if this is insulting, Stan) Guardian CIF-ers arguments to say that we shouldn’t use such images and texts because it makes us as bad (propaganda-wise) as they are.
THEY are the ones killing people under this ‘religious’ justification or interpretation nonsense. We are NOT. We are trying to work out WHY they do it and trying to get inside their heads. It’s not a nice place to be as far as I can see.
Wilders does not say “let’s kill all the bas****s!” Those he refers to DO say that.
He probably knows no better than you or me how to deal with it.
Propaganda usually refers to deliberately false or misleading information. Is any of this false?
And if the intention of propaganda is to change people’s understanding through deception and confusion, rather than persuasion and understanding, I don’t think this is propaganda. He seems to be laying out facts - pictures and words. We have to assume the text translations are accurate. They haven’t been challenged as far as I know. And the pictures are newsreel or as posted by Islamists themselves on YouTube etc.
You ask how we deal with it without knee-jerking. Well, apart from insisting that British resident Muslims get their houses in order, I’m not really sure either. But the politics of despair isn’t good enough. That means Hear no Evil, See No Evil, Speak no Evil.
If Wilders’ video DOES fan the flames, perhaps politicians will sit up and take notice, and DEAL with it.
Moderation would be ideal. We’re always moderate here, are we not? That’s why we all went along happily with multiculturalism even when we saw 15 years ago that Muslim women were kept at home, not learning English. Well, I saw it. And I kept thinking, “ah well, the next generation will be all right”.
I really do think Stan that unless Muslims in this country and in the rest of the EU don’t take the bull by the horns and question the blind acceptance by many in their number of all that is in their Holy Book, their wilder elements will continue generation after generation.
That’s work we should not leave as our legacy to today’s unborn.
March 29, 2008 at 9:43 pm
To Avalon,
Sorry, I missed your comment yesterday:
——————–
[Avalon Says:
March 28, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Moderate Muslim? that is the question. Why are Europeans giving away their culture to foreigners and cult religions? For 1000’s of years you have been doing just fine. Democracy, science, separation of church and state have propelled Europe into a bright future. Now, it seems your future may be in peril. When Hitler invaded the Rhine Europe was like “well, it is part of his own country and nothing to worry about…” until he took a little more and more… Wake up! defend your country and your culture!]
——————–
They might only miss it when it’s too late; though having said that, I’m not sure they will.
It seems some of us don’t know what we’ve got until it’s gone. For instance, we used to have a good prime minister not that long ago …
;0(
Don’t ask me where this extreme liberalism is taking us. I’m looking for a Green Card!
March 29, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Thank you to Geert Wilders, for placing this horrifying truth in front of the civilized world. We all do not know or understand what can be done to try to deal with those bent on violent overthrow of civilization as we know it.
But…the very first step is to expose these truly violent ideologies to the world. Simply ignoring them will not suffice as the goal is overthrow and control of the ENTIRE WORLD!
We of the civilized world speak of establishing dialogues with these terrorists.
The analogy here is childishy simple. When confronted with a mad, rabid dog, do you attempt to placate it? No. You simply put it out of its misery so that it can no longer be a danger to others.
Terrorists have been remarkably successful in convincing us that they are uncivilized, barbaric, simply rabid animals. Truly miserable human beings (perhaps that is too charitable). They need to be exterminated as an infestation of rats or cockroaches would be.
I was brought up to believe that there is some good in everyone. Sad to say, these terrorists have convinced me that my belief is incorrect.
We all must continue to expose the terrorist ideology, for the common good of the world’s civilized citizens. Again thank you Mr. Wilders.
March 29, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Hi there,
Thanks for your comment. It kind of surprises me that so many of us didn’t know what fundamental Islamicists are up to. I’ve spent some time recently on YouTube and the videos on there calling for “jihad” are horrifying. The responses and comments sometimes more so. Go and take a look if you haven’t already been there:
http://www.youtube.com
Put “jihad” in the search box.
Some of the worst ones have been recently removed but there are 30,000+ listed here.
Thankfully there are response videos too from those, like ourselves, who do not accept it.
See this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w91MgE3mi80
The sad thing and perhaps failure of our western governments, is that this did NOT start on 9/11. I’ve spent over 18 months researching for this site and it does not take long to find hundreds, even thousands of references to jihad and a caliphate being called for decades ago.
Did we just assume the extremists would go away or grow up? Possibly. We need to admit we got it wrong and pass the responsibility over to where it belongs. Into the hands of the Islamic religion worldwide. For a limited time.
If it doesn’t act …
Me too.
But what can we do about it if the Good Muslims of this world do not clamp down on these animals within their ranks? If they don’t act to eliminate them from our midst? If they don’t update, clarify and alter their Good Books? If they don’t re-establish Islam as a religious doctrine and instead allow it to remain a political creed of evil?
A political doctrine which has no time for democracy.
These are not rhetorical questions. I mean it. What can we do?
It’s over to us. Those of us, Islam and non-Islam, who believe in freedom and democracy, to take control. We mustn’t fail.
March 30, 2008 at 11:04 am
There is nothing wrong with facts that the video portrays and in an odd way, at least it has got people talking about these issues rather than silently holding on to their own inner hate.
Christianity went through it’s Reformation and it is just possible that so will Islam. Yet it is also possible Wilders is right to ask, how long do we have to wait.
I am agreement with the bulk of what you have to say.
Would nod in agreement with Stan that this is, in the final analysis, a right wing propaganda to get moderates to agree with him.
Was there not another man in history who was just as convincing about the Jews?
The motives matter.
BTW: Well presented!
March 30, 2008 at 11:41 am
Thanks, Winslie, for your comment.
Well, I take the point on the propaganda thing, and Wilders might well be looking for the support of moderates while many of his views are NOT moderate. As I’ve said I probably wouldn’t be with him on most of his political thinking. Whether it’s “propaganda” set up for THAT reason only - I still don’t think so. The man knows he is taking his life in his hands and has already said that the present limitations on his freedom are not easy to live with. And it may go on for the rest of his life - perhaps another half a century. Who knows?
Also he has been campaigning against Islamist fundamentalism in Holland for some time. It’s not something he cottoned on to just to raise his profile. On those grounds alone I wouldn’t describe it as propaganda. “Propaganda” accusations also sound like the arguments which those he opposes might take. If they were up to understanding REAL politics, REAL democracy, and REAL power to the people, which by definition, they are not.
As for the Hitler reference - well”! Isn’t that the angle often taken by the great British “liberal” press; they who stand up for ALL of our rights, (as long as they coincide with THEIR interpretation of them); they who are singularly quiet on THIS issue?
I don’t recall Judaism ever suicide bombing, insisting their God instructed them to murder others, killing their own family for “honour” or publicising their aim to take over the world.
And the German people were lulled into looking the other way while the Nazis ended millions of innocent lives. Here we are looking the other way while terrorists do their worst. We didn’t vote for terrorism! Or DID we?
And even if you are right - and his motives are skewed - at least someone had the guts to tell it like it us. British mainstream politicians are seriously negligent, for whatever reason. The BNP site today seems to be full of what we used to call “common sense” - when we could agree on what that was.
Worrying.
Btw, I visited you site and it reminded me that I wanted to use the Edmund Burke quote (I have used it before here at my thoughts on our biased press!) Not that it’ll make much difference, they and this country’s “liberal” intelligentsia are still filled with conspiracy theories and are convinced there is “no threat” from terrorism. Thus they concentrate on such as 28/42 days’ detention instead of WHY they are being detained. Watch the press as the government tries to increase this detention period. They will be full of civil righters at it in force, while they ignore Wilders’ warnings. The BBC too has disappointed me greatly in this.
Anyway, thank you so much for your thoughts and your kind words.
March 30, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Keep TB for PM,
Thanks for the response. My concern is that minority extremist parties will be the ones winning this argument, which (the argument) as you say should be on mainstream media.
I might not agree with our views but I am willing to have a dialogue and assuming you have no objection, I will link this article to a post as you do strive towards objectivity and as it is already discussed.
Sometimes it’s best to call a spade a spade rather than some PC term.
March 30, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Yes Winslie, that’s MY worry too. That’s why I referred to the BNP site.
Please link to your dialogue.
March 30, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I’d just like to come back on your reply to my comment, BS.
Yes, I agree with you entirely about the nasty bits of the Koran. But as I keep on saying, you can’t ban it or wipe it out of existence. You can only give maximum support to Islamic reformists like The Quilliam Foundation http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/ who are trying to neutralise (if not excise) those nasty bits, as Christians and Jews have done with regard to their religions. At the same time, again as I’ve said before we must come down really hard on those who use the nasty bits of the Koran to justify their atrocities and we must take steps to ensure that our culture is not swamped by excessive immigration (as this government is starting to do). I’m pretty sure that there is little disagreement here.
It’s when we turn to Mr Wilders that the differences creep in. I’m sorry but I don’t think he is just telling it as it is. He’s doing it in such a graphic, black and white way (as is the hallmark of propaganda) that the end result is to arouse hatred against the perpetrators of these wicked deeds.. The Jihadists do the same thing when they use pictures of children killed in an American airstrike to arouse hatred against the West. Fair enough, you might respond, surely these terrorists and fundamentalists deserve such hatred. Yes, they do. But human nature being what it is that kind of hatred inevitably spills over to encompass Muslims as a whole, who then become the scapegoats for every social ill. As a Jew I am particularly sensitive to the scapegoating process.
That is why it is absolutely essential when drawing attention to a problem of this magnitude and sensitivity that careful language be used and a clear distinction be made between the minority of extremists and the rest of the Muslim community. By all means argue that the moderates should do more to bring the extremists under control. But this should be done in an understanding and cooperative way rather than in an antagonistic way which simply puts their backs up.
It is also vital that the good aspects of Islam (such as its emphasis on people caring for each other) are acknowledged.
Winders does none of these things in his videos and interviews. It is for this reason that I regard him as being more part of the problem than part of the solution.
March 30, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Oh, Stan,
I think I have always made it clear that I am not a racist - not anti-Muslim - not anti-Islam - not anti-anything in this particular “religious” business. Apart from being anti-terrorism.
If Wilders is making the good Muslims sit up and think about the Khoran a little more deeply, then why is that not a good thing?
We seem to have been doing the softly-softly approach for years, but what good has it done?
I’m not advocating a hard approach - of course not - but just that those in the “religious” community need to exert their rights, re-possess Islam and the Khoran from their mad extremists and make sure the bad guys know it.
To be honest, if good Muslims haven’t noticed that there is a problem, well, where have they been recently!?
And if they have, why haven’t MORE of them and not just the few on the sites you refer to, seen to it? Perhaps because they can’t. They have no power to challenge the Khoran or the extremists.
If that is the case, Wilders may be right.
I don’t know the answer, Stan. I only ask the questions and put forward a few thoughts.
A further thought, or two:
You said, Stan:
How does anyone tell it “as it is” exactly? Is there a gentle form of ‘Khoran-inspired’ jihadism that we’re missing here? Or is jihad NOT encouraged or accepted in the Khoran? If so, the Islamic faith should make sure we ALL know that. As it is, it is easy to find jihad and caliphate encouraging verses.
Yes, if it was a balanced video on the good and bad sides of Islam, it would be completely different. And it would get no publicity. Maybe that would have been better. Continue to see no evil hear no evil, speak no evil for as long as it takes, or as long as we’re here.
The way we have been telling it, civilised as we have been, and saying things such as “these people hide behind a genuine religious belief to hide their political ideology”, and “they are not true Muslims” has patently not worked!
It’s almost dhimmitude - and I repeat I am not right-wing in my voting habits - to say we understand and we will keep on understanding for as long as it takes, because you terrorists (must) have some justification for wanting to kill us - in fact ANYONE - Christian, Jew, even other Muslims who do not agree with you. The “it’s OUR fault” argument.
I don’t accept that.
This self-blame attitude has permeated our whole society. Take education, of which I know something. Supply teachers in London are told that they have to earn the respect of the children and that there are “no sanctions” for misbehaviour. A head teacher who wanted to expel a primary age child who attacked another with a knife was asked by the local authority, “well, how far in did the knife go”". And because the child wasn’t seriously injured , she was refused the right to expel!
Anyway, you and I won’t fall out over this, Stan, I’m sure.
I know who my friends are.
March 30, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Me too, BS. I guess our differences are due to your frustration (which I share) about the message not getting through enough where it matters.
March 30, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Btw, the understanding I was talking about was related solely to the moderates NOT the extremists.
March 30, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Yes, Stan, I understood that. The Quilliam Foundation is a good link, btw. It took me to a New Statesman article by a lapsed female HuT member. You have to read the comments to see the problems we have. Disbelief, accusations towards this lady and conspiracy theories galore.
Astounding!
http://www.newstatesman.com/200802280027
All the best to you.
March 31, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Stan mentioned an interesting point about the possible impact of this film. He asserts that it may incite reactionary violence among Muslim communities. I think you may be right, but not in reaction AGAINST the message of the film (aside from the cartoon of the Prophet, perhaps) but as a motivational film used by Jihadees. In fact, I would not be surprised if most of this content wouldn’t garner a seal of approval from the Wahhabists and the Shiite radicals. I would find this as sadly ironic as the favorable reactions Sacha Cohen was able to elicit from a few of my countrymen on topics of homosexuality, racism and politics in his film Borat. It hurt to watch such willful ignorance on display (though I was laughing, too).
Does a moderate Muslim cringe in the same way when he or she hears rants against the Infidel, the Jews, or the West coming from their community, religious or academic leaders? If there is a Muslim moderate “silent majority” in the West, now is the time for them to step up take a stand in affirmation of western civilization and a society built on the rule of secular law.
I hope that the Muslim communities around the world view the film and take strong action to correct the interpretation of its message. I hope they do not take action to suppress or denounce the film, but rather denounce the messages and actions condoned by the Koran and islamic leaders portrayed in the Film. I would like to see Islamic religious leaders ansd scholars take active steps in their Mosques, newspapers and websites to take action against Islamofascim in word and deed.
BTW, outstanding Blog. I am impressed by your even-handed moderation and the civlility and education of your visitors. Bill Buckley would have been proud.
March 31, 2008 at 7:04 pm
KeepTB for PM,
Too many people are saying nice things about you, WHY? Do you hand out sweets or something and where are all the flamers?
If I may respond to Mongo cos your watching the news (I assume).
March 31, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Mongo
That is an interesting observation and if that thought is carried even further are we all guilty of having ” material of incitement to racial/religious hatred”, a crime in UK?
No amount of deleting is going to wipe out those breadcrumbs.
As for the Moderate Muslims, they have no option but to remain silent, till when? I don’t know!
It is part and parcel of the faith that their book is the verbatim words of God. When you that pumped into you five times a day since childhood, ask yourself the question, have you got the guts to stand up to the mullahs?
I feel it is our duty to keep the dialogue open and tolerant because the bloggers are watching and listening.
Keep the voice of reason alive, is my only request.
I’m off my soapbox on Hyde Park Corner.
March 31, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Mongo,
Thanks for your thought here. I particularly liked this:
I hope your question isn’t rhetorical, but I fear it might be. Otherwise, as I mentioned before, if they had the power surely moderate Muslims would have been toe-curlingly embarrassed and humiliated over the worldwide terrorism wrought in THEIR name, as well as the rantings. Then, surely, they would have clamped down on the jihadists and caliphate-ambitious long ago?
So I am sadly concluding that they’re either not bothered or incapable of implementing change at the top. Leadership is ALL it takes to let the rest of us moderates, of all religions and none, know that one politicised religion is NOT actually bent on our destruction. Islam’s lack of leadership structure is, perhaps, the biggest obstacle to hearing the majority moderate voices.
It’s a form of anarchy, since the fundamentalist extremists constantly say they answer to “no government, to no country, only to Allah”.
And with anarchists, it’s the loudest and shrillest voices we here, not the voices raised in moderate dialogue.
In democracies we have choices. We vote ‘em in and can vote ‘em out too.
Having said that , I’m still looking for one British party leader or even party, since Blair’s departure, willing to tell it like it is on Islamists.
Still a floating voter.
Btw, thanks for your kind comments, Mongo. I try to attract the best ;0)
You are welcome back any time, of course.
March 31, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Winslie - hello again.
You said:
Nah, Winslie! Only bittersweet here ;0)
The flamers had a go at the beginning, when I published everything that came in. But I decided to monitor comments after taking receipt of the many ways one could help a politician to meet a ‘well-deserved’ early end. Apart from being nasty and pretty barbaric ‘peace-loving’ types, they are often monosyllabic. I don’t think any arguments should be conducted in such a limited and infantile fashion. I now therefore monitor comments before publication.
Having said that, I don’t get too many that I need to monitor nowadays. The hangers-and-floggers are all happy venting their spleen at the Guardian Cif pages. Keeps them off the streets!
But I certainly haven’t had many, if any, saying that Wilders was wrong intrinsically to tell it like he thinks it is over Islamists.
March 31, 2008 at 11:43 pm
KeepTBforPM,
Wilders getting heap big publicity and BNP win local elections in unheard of places. Soon they will be challenging Boris and Livingstone.
That is going the wrong way!
April 1, 2008 at 12:39 am
Any links to the BNP wins, Winslie?
Hmmm…mm
April 1, 2008 at 6:59 am
KeepTBforPM
http://tinyurl.com/38fmrk
“BNP candidate Mark Logan scored 38 per cent with 865 votes, followed closely by Labour candidate Yvonne Cornell, who picked up 33 per cent with 741 votes, and Conservative candidate Malcolm George Fox, who picked up 21 per cent, or 489 votes”
and
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/tim_hames/article3648815.ece
April 1, 2008 at 9:18 am
Yes, it’s being written off as a protest vote. Probably is. Right now.
It’s here:
http://www.london24.com/textonly/story.aspx?brand=RECOnline&category=newsRomford&tBrand=textonly&tCategory=london24&itemid=WeED28%20Mar%202008%2011%3A11%3A36%3A400
April 1, 2008 at 4:12 pm
KeepTBforPM
Isn’t that the point you are making! That main stream politics and media have failed the general GB, ok UK Public. People protest because there isn’t a real alternative. This debate needs to be had, out there in public.
April 1, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Well, yes exactly, Winslie.
Although I don’t think this narrow win was due to the Wilders video.
There are areas where the BNP have taken on the Lib Dem work ethic of becoming “the voice” in all the local goings-on. And they target like crazy.
Still, I was told recently that they had scored remarkably high in a most unexpected part of the country last year. Their immigration stance has always been popular.
Wonder what will be the result of the latest development re the Lords report?
Look out for a lot of hardening up of positions on immigration.
There still won’t be anything about fundamentalist Islam, though. They ALL need to protect the ethnic vote.
If that sounds cynical - well, so be it. Most of them know the score.
The debate will have to be held online, it seems.
April 1, 2008 at 9:42 pm
KeepTBforPM
I should admit, that I am a second generation Black Brit from a long line of seafarers. But believe it or not, I would like to put the Pride back into British.
The only people who seem to be doing that right now are the BNP. I could try and join, but somehow don’t think they’d understand.
I am quite pleased to see the Lords report.
“The report says immigration has had “little or no” impact on people’s economic well-being.
But Gordon Brown insists it is good for the UK. He argues that £6bn has been added to the economy because of people moving. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/the_p_word/newsid_7324000/7324846.stm
April 1, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Winslie - you make a pertinent point about how much the BNP would understand! Would be an interesting exercise to try to join them, though! I NEVER would. Can’t stand racism, and I am yet to be persuaded that they are anything other than racists.
I haven’t time this week to read much of what’s doing the rounds, so the Lords’ Report will have to wait. But I am sure it’ll be argued forcefully from both sides. There was certainly a time when immigration was strongly encouraged from “the colonies” and we know why. But it’s the recent immigration, and not all from former colonies which perturbs most of us. Powell’s “Rivers of Blood” prophesy never came about, mainly because he was referring to immigration from largely Christian countries, perhaps MORE Christian than this.
THAT prophesy proved wrong, though I think he was probably right to raise it. As for the present prophesy - a completely different level of threat, imho.
September 1, 2008 at 12:49 am
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