Comment at end
UPDATE TO THIS, 24th May: ONE OF THE PLAID CYMRU MPs NAMED BELOW – ELFYN LLWYD, THEIR PARTY LEADER – IS ON THE WESTMINSTER HOUR, 10:00pm RADIO 4. He has just said “I hope if there is criminality the Police DO get involved!!!” Me too, Mr Llwyd, me too.
22nd May, 2009
Welsh Nationalists (Plaid Cymru) Plan to oust Tony Blair: THEIR Legal Advice put on Expenses
UNBELIEVABLE!
The Plaid MPs had been told by two lawyers, paid for by you and me, that it was possible to invoke the impeachment procedure against Tony Blair, last attempted against Foreign Secretary Lord Palmerston in 1848. This was in 2004. Why didn't they do it? They had 3 more years before he left Parliament.
TAXPAYERS unwittingly footed a £4,500 bill for an attempt to impeach Tony Blair while he was Prime Minister – as Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists) MPs claimed it on expenses.
The party’s three Westminster politicians divvied up the legal costs of trying to put the Premier in the dock over the Iraq war, and claimed for them under their office cost allowances.
It means Labour supporters across the UK forked out for a failed campaign to bring down the Prime Minister of the day.
So did YOU realise that as a UK taxpayer or resident of ANY political affiliation or none, YOU were paying for this scurrilous and politically motivated campaign to get the then Prime Minister in the dock for a foreign policy decision?
NOT A PENNY OF THE MPs’ WAS WORTH THE RISK!
It’s outrageous! These nationalist MPs were so convinced of the rightness of their cause that they didn’t put a penny of their own money into their failed attempt to land the former prime minister in court over the Iraq war.
We’ve heard all sorts of nasties over expenses in the last couple of weeks, with more to come, but this takes the biscuit! Whether expenses used for cleaning moats, duck islands, gardeners and Tory mortgage flipping, chocolate Santas, porn films, avoiding capital gains tax, mortgages that have been paid for, phantom mortgages and Labour mortgage flipping, court charges, interior designers and their daughters’ rent were legal or not, this is in a class of its own!
NONE of them – legal, illegal, iffy, within or without the spirit of the Expenses rules compares to this.
We the ‘in-the-dark’ voters were being billed to pay costs of legal advice on a campaign supported by a tiny minority of the country.
An attempt, which if it were fruitful, could have seen Tony Blair in the dock, either to be found guilty, or far more likely innocent of the charges. If found guilty he could have been imprisoned over a political decision – bringing shame and disgrace on our country and on our legal system. If not guilty, would WE the British public have been expected to also pay further legal costs out of the Additional Costs Allowances (expenses)?
WHEN WERE YOU ASKED IF YOU SUPPORTED THE LITTLE NATIONALISTS IN THEIR ATTEMPT TO CRIMINALISE A PRIME MINISTER?
NEVER?
ME TOO.
In fact I looked on these people at the time as treacherous to Britain for this nonsense, and I still do. We should defend our own in this wicked world. We can start by working out who exactly ARE our own. A Prime Minister who did what he thought was right for the country, whether we agreed with it or not, is one of us.
PAY IT BACK OR DEFEND THIS BEHAVIOUR IN COURT, NATIONALIST MPs
So when can we get THEM into court for mis-using public funds?
Ms Booth’s Chambers? Advice, please?
Elfyn Llwyd, MP, Plaid Cymru
Adam Price MP, Plaid Cymru
Hywel Williams MP, Plaid Cymru
Pay it back, Price, Williams & Llywd or it may be YOU we see in the dock.
Lembit Opik’s mistaken court charge of £40 – “will be paid back”.
ALL NATS! SO NOTHING ‘POLITICAL’ THEN?
There were also Scottish Nationalist MPs involved in this shameful campaign. I wonder how the Scottish Nationalists paid for their legal advice? Or perhaps they left it to the Welsh MPs whose legal advice would cover English & Welsh law.
On the other hand, such a crowd of scoundrels are the lot of these nationalists, that I wouldn’t be surprised if separate Scottish legal advice was also taken, just in case Scottish law gave them greater flexibility to haul Blair to “justice”.
I was never keen on this Telegraph campaign of hanging out MPs to dry. But on this one I say – bring it on, The Telegraph. When are you going to tell us about the Scottish Nationalist MPs who also wanted to impeach Blair? Did they receive legal advice? If so, how was it paid?
Or perhaps the Western Mail’s Tomos Livingstone might wish to take the issue up. I could write it for him if he likes. How’s this for a headline – “Plaid MPs’ anti-Iraq war Legal bill, on a Good Day to Bury Bad News”
It has a certain ring, don’t you think?
House of Commons Additional Costs Claims List – I can’t see anything about legal costs to get a sitting PM into court, or for any other “legal” cost (pdf file, 1 page only)
The Green Book (pdf) general guidelines:
The principles are:
Claims should be above reproach and must reflect actual usage of the resources being claimed.
Claims must only be made for expenditure that it was necessary for a Member to incur to ensure that he or she could properly perform his or her parliamentary duties.
Allowances are reimbursed only for the purpose of a Member carrying out his or her parliamentary duties.
Claims cannot relate to party political activity of any sort, nor must any claim provide a benefit to a party political organisation.
It is not permissible for a Member to claim under any parliamentary allowance for anything that the Member is claiming from any other source.
Members must ensure that claims do not give rise to, or give the appearance of giving rise to, an improper personal financial benefit to themselves or anyone else.
Members are committed to openness about what expenditure has been incurred and for what purposes.
Individual Members take personal responsibility for all expenses incurred, for making claims and for keeping records, even if the administration of claims is delegated by them to others.
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th points above are noteworthy, in my humble opinion.
In the Green Book – Office Costs Allowance, under which it seems these legal costs were claimed:
Purpose of the allowance:
The AOE is an allowance designed to provide for facilities, equipment, supplies and services for Members and their staff.
It may only be used to meet the following costs:
Accommodation for office or surgery use or for occasional meetings.
Equipment and supplies for the office or surgery.
Work commissioned and other services.
Certain travel costs not met out of travel expenditure.
Again, nothing here about “legal costs”
But the MPs insisted it was their duty to hold the PM to account, and the impeachment was a parliamentary campaign, not a party political move.
Mr Williams’ receipts, which he opened up to the Daily Post ahead of their official publication by the Commons next month, show that in October 2004 he claimed £1,500 for legal bills for the campaign under his Incidental Expenses Provision.
That pot of cash, worth up to £21,339 a year, is for office costs, such as equipment and supplies, as well as miscellaneous claims.
He said: “Three of us chipped in to check with a legal firm who gave us advice to impeach the prime minister Tony Blair, we had expert legal opinion and this was also checked by the speaker, and the fees office.
“It was agreed with the fees office because this was a parliamentary campaign not a party political campaign.
“It was not about him as leader of the Labour party, it was about him carrying out his role as Prime Minister.
“I strongly refute that it was a party political campaign, it was a campaign to hold him to account, which it is our job to do as MPs. In this case we needed specialist advice to do that.”
The campaign, launched in 2004, had a host of celebrity supporters, including music producer Brian Eno and playwright Harold Pinter, as well as former Tory MP Boris Johnson, who is now Mayor of London.
It was also supported by shamed Conservative Douglas Hogg who became the first MP to step down in the expenses scandal after he was exposed claiming to have his moat cleaned.
Plaid Cymru was thrust in to the spotlight as it argued there was compelling evidence the prime minister misled MPs and the country over Iraq and accused him of negligence and incompetence over weapons of mass destruction.
On top of that they claimed he had undermined the constitution and entered into a secret agreement with the US president.
Mr Price was banished from the chamber on one occasion for refusing to withdraw a comment that Mr Blair had not been honest with MPs – a breach of parliamentary rules that forbid politicians calling each other liars.
Although the party gathered together legal findings and brought in academics to prove there was a case to answer and the action could be taken the campaign was never expected to take off seriously.
Plaid used the two lawyers – Rabinder Singh QC and Professor Conor Gearty – who shared the same chambers as Mr Blair’s wife, Cherie Booth, when drawing up their case.
The party eventually shelved its campaign after failing to win support among Labour rebels.
Mr Llwyd, the party’s parliamentary leader, said: “It was a claim that we made to help us do our parliamentary duties, there was no material benefit to us.
“We would do it again. Tens of thousands of people are dead because Tony Blair misled people.
“We wanted an investigation into an untruth by a Prime Minister that led to a war. I think that was money well spent.”
Taxpayers Alliance campaign director Mark Wallace said: “Anyone must be able to bring a legal action but there’s no way MPs’ expenses should be used for this kind of campaigning.
“These MPs should never have tried to claim legal costs as some kind of office expenses. Once they had, Parliamentary checks should never had allowed it.
“There’s a world of difference between employing staff to respond to constituency correspondence and pursuing a purely political objective.”
DISCLAIMER – PLEASE NOTE:
I have yet to source this information at The Telegraph, so have to accept that the Daily Post has its facts right. If anyone mentioned above feels that I have MY facts wrong, please let me know and I will alter or withdraw them immediately. I DO hate it when honest people are misjudged.
UPDATE to Disclaimer: The BBC website is now also reporting this here.
RELATED:
- Plaid Condemns ‘7 Deadly Sins of MPs’ expenses’ – WHAT? No solicitor’s charges?
- Other EU countries’ opinions: “Scandal marks disintegration of New Labour”
- Man failed to bring expenses charges against Home Secretary – ADVICE on how to proceed: He said: “If you believe a Member of Parliament is guilty of fraud, go to your nearest magistrates court, type out four lines alleging the fraud and ask for a summons.”
Tory MP, Nadine Dorries – “MPs fear suicide”: “The atmosphere in Westminster is unbearable. People are constantly checking to see if others are ok. Everyone fears a suicide. If someone isn’t seen, offices are called and checked“. AND “Treating a group of people in this almost sadistic way is appalling and has to stop.”
- 26th August 2004 – Nationalists lead bid to impeach Tony Blair
- 26th August 2004 – British Lawmakers’ attempt to impeach Blair
- 23rd September 2004 – ‘Impeach Blair’ wins legal backing
Tags: Adam Price Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, Elfyn Llwyd Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Hywel Williams MP Caernarfon, impeach Blair campaigners shamed, Plaid Cymro MPs should be impeached, Plaid Cymru MPs charged legal costs to Expenses, Tony Blair, Tony Blair impeachment attempt
Tony Blair 
May 25, 2009 at 7:17 am |
The Five Billion Pound cost of the illegal war was also paid for by the taxpayer. £4k is insignificant, in comparison!
May 25, 2009 at 12:29 pm |
Hi Alwyn.
Which “illegal war” was that then? In which court has it been proved to have been illegal? NONE, and it never will be. Because it wasn’t.
This is what such as yourself fail to understand. So blithely do you put about accusations of “illegality” that you assume that puts an end to all conversation on the subject of anyone else raging against it “illegally”. The PC MPs were obviously “innocent” in comparison, say you.
Bascially what you’re saying is that since Blair committed the country to a war with which you disagree (and did it “illegally”) any forces which fiddle their own costs, since they have taken a high-minded principled stance AGAINST Blair, are ALL RIGHT!
It’s so incredibly patronising, self-serving and hypocritical.
£4,500 is not a lot divided between three for the Plaid Cymru MPs to have dug up between them. They could have organised coffee mornings to raise it!
And in the end, even when the legal advice was that they DID have grounds to accuse a sitting PM of “illegality” they bottled it. Why? If they were so sure of themselves and their position?
Was the whole thing a publicity stunt? If so, they should have funded it themselves.
As to your argument that it doesn’t compare in costs to the Iraq war – well, so what?
The Iraq invasion was a political decision taken by a democratically elected government, and it was elected again for a third time AFTER the decision had been taken.
On the other hand, a few MPs on high-horses, thought they’d put their hands in the taxpayers’ pockets, without asking us, in order to shame a PM, government and our country over a highly justified and quite legal war (imho).
Only, in the end they did NOT have the power of their convictions to see it through.
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